Curse

Phelann · Aug 07, 2006, 02:07 AM // 02:07

some other things i thought of while on this train of thought, but somewhat more random since not in post form

1. I'd just like to fully state/reword my views on the set 8. I think all you need to get better is a set of like minded people that all want to improve. I think the reason most people use a set 8 to achieve this is because they cannot find those like minded people and so they use a set 8 to give everyone an added incentive to improve: get better, or your out. If you can get more than 8 people that all want to improve and dont need this threat/incentive, then you should be just as successful as a set 8 (provided your guild stays small, less than 16).

2. Ask top teams for advice. I dont mean randomly hound them, but if you fight them and die horribly, quickly ask them where you think you messed up the most. As long as you don't expect too much (for example, don't ask KGYU to be helpful) you should get some helpful advice. Just do not keep messaging them long after the match, ask a few quick questions while they queue up for the next gvg. Another great way to get advice is to go in irc and ask people with tags of top guilds: i know i always answer someone (eventually) who messages me there asking for advice, since I can respond on my own time.

3. Do not give up immediately when entering with a high rank team. This is very important, always act like you can win and plan around winning. Through some burst of luck we beat igi at the begining of the third season (our interview has people saying evil was out first big win, but it wasnt) when they were running some super pressure build and had literally 0 losses (or maybe 1 because of some spike team, dunno). This gave us a huge boost of confidence, and suddenly made us enter every fight acting like we could win a fight. Once that happenned, we skyrocketed. Later when we fought evil, we actually fealt we could win (after te, beat them with that build, and we had learned to play it, so why couldn't we). And then we did. Then we knew we had finally become a top guild, something we had been unable to do the past 2 seasons (when we tried to make our own builds, didnt focus on improvement, etc).

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 07, 2006, 02:40 AM // 02:40

While Phelann has some excellent points, I think the real difference in our viewpoints comes from the teams we began with. When you're coming from a PvE or casual PvP standpoint, you don't really know which of your players are going to have the attitude and drive to improve that is necessary in competitive PvP. MH is an exception to this because you guys were largely PvPers in DAoC.

I'd say that if you're in a situation where you know every player on your team is going to be a committed and capable player, then the methods Phelann discusses would probably work much better. In my experience though, most starting guilds have varying levels of drive. Some players really want to get better and learn to play at the top level, while others just want to mess around with grab-eight-and-go builds or think they already know how Guild Wars works.

If I was leading the team I've built in GW into some other game, I'd probably do just what you guys did, and hopefully we'd do as well as you guys have.

Without an already-built team though, I've found that you do need to be pretty strict at first. You'll learn who's really willing to play seriously and who just wants to mess around. Once you know that you can probably relax your restrictions quite a lot with the people you know to be capable, and make it clear to those who you've taken off the roster how they need to improve their attitudes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

2. Ask top teams for advice. I dont mean randomly hound them, but if you fight them and die horribly, quickly ask them where you think you messed up the most. As long as you don't expect too much (for example, don't ask KGYU to be helpful) you should get some helpful advice. Just do not keep messaging them long after the match, ask a few quick questions while they queue up for the next gvg. Another great way to get advice is to go in irc and ask people with tags of top guilds: i know i always answer someone (eventually) who messages me there asking for advice, since I can respond on my own time.

3. Do not give up immediately when entering with a high rank team. This is very important, always act like you can win and plan around winning. Through some burst of luck we beat igi at the begining of the third season (our interview has people saying evil was out first big win, but it wasnt) when they were running some super pressure build and had literally 0 losses (or maybe 1 because of some spike team, dunno). This gave us a huge boost of confidence, and suddenly made us enter every fight acting like we could win a fight. Once that happenned, we skyrocketed. Later when we fought evil, we actually fealt we could win (after te, beat them with that build, and we had learned to play it, so why couldn't we). And then we did. Then we knew we had finally become a top guild, something we had been unable to do the past 2 seasons (when we tried to make our own builds, didnt focus on improvement, etc).

Agreed completely. These are both absolutely essential.

stueyman2099 · Aug 07, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

(for example, don't ask KGYU to be helpful)

QFT

Anyway, thanks for the tips.

Phelann · Aug 07, 2006, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

While Phelann has some excellent points, I think the real difference in our viewpoints comes from the teams we began with. When you're coming from a PvE or casual PvP standpoint, you don't really know which of your players are going to have the attitude and drive to improve that is necessary in competitive PvP. MH is an exception to this because you guys were largely PvPers in DAoC.

I'd say that if you're in a situation where you know every player on your team is going to be a committed and capable player, then the methods Phelann discusses would probably work much better. In my experience though, most starting guilds have varying levels of drive. Some players really want to get better and learn to play at the top level, while others just want to mess around with grab-eight-and-go builds or think they already know how Guild Wars works.

If I was leading the team I've built in GW into some other game, I'd probably do just what you guys did, and hopefully we'd do as well as you guys have.

Without an already-built team though, I've found that you do need to be pretty strict at first. You'll learn who's really willing to play seriously and who just wants to mess around. Once you know that you can probably relax your restrictions quite a lot with the people you know to be capable, and make it clear to those who you've taken off the roster how they need to improve their attitudes.

We actually didn't have an already built team. While there was an MH in daoc, and most are from daoc, most of us are not from MH-DAoC. But yes, we did know everyone had a good attitude (or most people). But I think others can do the same thing we do as long as you make sure to play with people that want to (and have stated that they are willing to) improve. We just had that part of the process already done for us.

But you are right in that it probably does take a bit of strictness to weed it down to those you know need to improve. And making a set 8 does get that weeding done quicker. I'm just not so sure its necessary, since the whole set 8 thing can suck alot of fun out of games (and trust me I know, I was in the best set 8 team in dark age of camelot at one point, but we were also the strictest, and looking back it wasn't necessary, other guilds had similar success with alot more fun). Pretty much all of MH actually was in a set 8 at one point in daoc, and none of fealt it was necessary again.

Novita · Aug 07, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

First, we copied a top team's build (treacherous empire). We then played with the build some to get to know it, and then we went and (this is important) watched them play it some more to master some of the fine points of the build. Originally we only spiked with it, but then we watched them pressure and learned how to do that also (this was key in making us good). We also watched how they steamrolled (killed one monk and used blackouts to cause the entire team to collapse) and learned to do that. Once we mastered all that, we really began to understand the build and, more importantly, we understood why they ran it. Once we could understand why it was so important to have both pressure and spiking ability in the build, and why that steamroll was so great, once we could actually think like te, we became good players. And all that happenned because we chose a build and stuck with it.

I love that comment! Very useful tips for gvg newcomers

. My guild also 'copied' a build from EvIL and tried to improve always playing the same. In fact we are still around with some kind of similar build =)

Phelann · Aug 07, 2006, 05:31 AM // 05:31

copying evil is probably making things needlessly difficult since some of their builds take advantage of the fact that their players kite/pre kite/position like gods (such as the blight monk builds).

unless of course you run at least 1 normal monk, then that might be the way to go!

Mithie · Aug 07, 2006, 02:11 PM // 14:11

My guild plays on a pretty erratic scheduel. I think we'd benefit from more organization, like a set GVG time, but due to most of us having jobs and school, I don't want to make Guild Wars into a pressure thing instead of a chance to relax from a days work. So we haven't made any attempts for a "GVG night" or any such.

Novita · Aug 07, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

copying evil is probably making things needlessly difficult since some of their builds take advantage of the fact that their players kite/pre kite/position like gods (such as the blight monk builds).

unless of course you run at least 1 normal monk, then that might be the way to go!

Thats true and they also play assassins like nobody does..well we play an old build they used to run, very similar to Te pressure builds and its more like a 7vs7 than a gank build (2 war 2 denial mes 1 water 1 air 2 boon).

I think its quite easy to start with in a adrenal spike mode and then switch to more pressure based and practice steamroll killing one monk after another. The main issue is facing gimmicks builds (thumpers, SB spike...) or stronger pressure builds that makes difficult to hold a flagstand fight.

Winstar · Aug 09, 2006, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Hey all,

I just wanted to say thanks for all the excellent and detailed feedback. Its really appreciated.

We're still oscillating between 200's and 400's right now. The bad nights are generally due to the fact that we have people hopping into spots they aren't familiar with and that we're currently experimenting with a few standard builds to find something we like.

Cheers

Michael of Xoo · Aug 10, 2006, 03:09 AM // 03:09

I'm going to be a minority here as well.

As a member of Xen of Onslaught for over a year, I can tell you that you can hold a "steady" rank if that's your goal even while rotating members to accomodate everyone wanting to play.

I believe one thing that is important though at the particular rank you're talking about is that everyone play their "best" role. Meaning if WarriorX and WarriorY rotate in and out of matches all night, you can rely on both to be solid players and know/understand the strategies of your team as long as they are playing those roles every time they GvG. If WarriorX happens to roll a Monk for one match just so you can keep GvGing - well, then you're likely going to see a decline in rating.

Yes, you will still see some fluctuation, but c'est la vie!

This is Brad · Aug 10, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Generally try and have the same people play the same role again and again every night. These people will gain the most expertise in playing this certain class.

It is a good idea to get people that are skilled at playing 1 or 2 classes, but usually attempt to have them stick to only those 2. Trying to spread your abilities too thin can make you decent at many classes, but not as good as you could be at just 1 or 2 focused one. (In particular I enjoy playing Warrior and Ranger the best, as they are highly offensive classes that fit my playstyle).

psycho854 · Aug 11, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

grab 8n go

we GvG a lot but were not that serious about winning an building teams... its just like: what do u want to play? ok take it. if were getting not enough monks from this the question is: whos the monk were missing: ok take the spot and then go

we decided that it takes too long to actually set up a build and get the team right. in that time we could have gone in and out again

the fun is the baseline we are dedicated to. if we want to play serious we do it but normaly its just a build based around some chars everybody likes

This is Brad · Aug 12, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Playing in that fashion may result in quick party assembly, but if you ever want to get competitive and reach the upper levels of the ladder you need to specialize more.

If you dont care about wins and just want to run around with 8 people and sometimes win sometimes lose then this strategy will be perfectly sufficient.